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Do Women Need Less Education Than Men? Part 2
Wed, 2010-04-21 14:26 — Michal Crum
Self-esteem is one of the greatest lies that Satan has instilled in our minds today. Please hear me out. It's an elusive pursuit—the more we grasp desperately at it, the more it fades into the distance. A Christian's objective is never self-esteem. Where in the Bible are we instructed to highly esteem ourselves? In fact, we are told to do the opposite. Mark 10:31 says, "But the first shall be last, and the last first." We are told, though, that God esteems us. He created man and saw that it was very good (Genesis 1:31). He deems us worthy of knowing intimately (Psalms 139:13, Proverbs 20:27). He has adopted us as His own sons (Ephesians 1:5) and has given us an inheritance of eternal life (Romans 8:23). And if we believe these verses, then we esteem ourselves as children of God. And we couldn't ask for a more valuable estimation.
But if I were an advocate of self-esteem, I might actually oppose women attending college. To learn why, take a look at current statistics of eating disorders and depression in female college students. For more reading on that topic, I recommend the book Unprotected, by Miriam Grossman.
While the college scenario I presented in my first post may have sounded extreme, it is in fact the norm. The average undergrad changes his major three times.1 Students graduate with an average of $22,700 of debt. Grad school applications increase in times of recession.2 If you are an exception to these rules, I congratulate you. But it doesn't invalidate my argument.
Debt can easily prevent us from obeying when God calls us in a given direction--whether that be starting a family, staying home with children, moving to assist in a church plant, or doing mission work.
One more thing: we may be waiting longer to marry, but we're engaging in sex at earlier ages. What happens in between? I'll tell you: abortion. Whether or not you acknowledge that abortion is evil, you must recognize that the problem here is not lack of education. My generation knows what causes pregnancy, and they know how to prevent it. But they continue to get pregnant and to have abortions at devastating rates—Christians, too. A study conducted in 1998 revealed that in 1987-1988, 10.8% of women having abortions reported their babies were unwanted because they would disrupt her education or career.3
When we kill our own children to preserve our education or career, there is no doubt that-—as one eloquent reader said of my first post—we've got things "ass-backwards."
1. http://advising.uoregon.edu/AA_Pages/AA_ChooseMajor.html
2. http://www.forbes.com/2009/03/10/college-graduate-school-loans-personal-finance-retirement-grad-school-debt.html
3. http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/2411798.html
In reading the responses to my last blog post, I am struck by the number of false assumptions made. Some are personal (that I regret my time in college, that I went into debt, etc.) Others are overarching and I would like to address them briefly. Here are the myths:
1. Education = Academia
A woman choosing not to pursue a college degree is not ending her education. There are many ways we educate ourselves, whether by improving a skill set specific to a profession or by broadening our horizons through literary classics, foreign language, or current events. Colleges do not own education. It would be, to borrow a term, narrow-minded to say otherwise.
2. Degrees are wasted if they are not used in a professional setting.
There is value to education regardless of whether it is applied to a career. As one commenter pointed out, college education has prepared many of us for our jobs as mothers. It doesn't necessarily follow, though, that a college education is the best preparation we could have made for motherhood.
We all agree that motherhood requires both intelligence and education. In fact, mothers may carry the heaviest responsibility to educate themselves continually. We nurture our children's minds most effectively when we play towards their strengths and interests. That requires observation and research. We also are constantly updating our knowledge on healthcare, nutrition, first aid, childhood development, and a host of other subjects. Most of my education was spent learning how to learn. For the same reason, college drop-outs have not wasted the years they spent in college. I didn't get a degree, but I did learn. And learning is seldom wasted.
We all agree that motherhood requires both intelligence and education. In fact, mothers may carry the heaviest responsibility to educate themselves continually. We nurture our children's minds most effectively when we play towards their strengths and interests. That requires observation and research. We also are constantly updating our knowledge on healthcare, nutrition, first aid, childhood development, and a host of other subjects. Most of my education was spent learning how to learn. For the same reason, college drop-outs have not wasted the years they spent in college. I didn't get a degree, but I did learn. And learning is seldom wasted.
3. Self-esteem is crucial to a woman's well-being, and college is a great place to find it.
Self-esteem is one of the greatest lies that Satan has instilled in our minds today. Please hear me out. It's an elusive pursuit—the more we grasp desperately at it, the more it fades into the distance. A Christian's objective is never self-esteem. Where in the Bible are we instructed to highly esteem ourselves? In fact, we are told to do the opposite. Mark 10:31 says, "But the first shall be last, and the last first." We are told, though, that God esteems us. He created man and saw that it was very good (Genesis 1:31). He deems us worthy of knowing intimately (Psalms 139:13, Proverbs 20:27). He has adopted us as His own sons (Ephesians 1:5) and has given us an inheritance of eternal life (Romans 8:23). And if we believe these verses, then we esteem ourselves as children of God. And we couldn't ask for a more valuable estimation.
But if I were an advocate of self-esteem, I might actually oppose women attending college. To learn why, take a look at current statistics of eating disorders and depression in female college students. For more reading on that topic, I recommend the book Unprotected, by Miriam Grossman.
4. Exceptions to a rule invalidate an argument.
While the college scenario I presented in my first post may have sounded extreme, it is in fact the norm. The average undergrad changes his major three times.1 Students graduate with an average of $22,700 of debt. Grad school applications increase in times of recession.2 If you are an exception to these rules, I congratulate you. But it doesn't invalidate my argument.
Debt can easily prevent us from obeying when God calls us in a given direction--whether that be starting a family, staying home with children, moving to assist in a church plant, or doing mission work.
One more thing: we may be waiting longer to marry, but we're engaging in sex at earlier ages. What happens in between? I'll tell you: abortion. Whether or not you acknowledge that abortion is evil, you must recognize that the problem here is not lack of education. My generation knows what causes pregnancy, and they know how to prevent it. But they continue to get pregnant and to have abortions at devastating rates—Christians, too. A study conducted in 1998 revealed that in 1987-1988, 10.8% of women having abortions reported their babies were unwanted because they would disrupt her education or career.3
When we kill our own children to preserve our education or career, there is no doubt that-—as one eloquent reader said of my first post—we've got things "ass-backwards."
1. http://advising.uoregon.edu/AA_Pages/AA_ChooseMajor.html
2. http://www.forbes.com/2009/03/10/college-graduate-school-loans-personal-finance-retirement-grad-school-debt.html
3. http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/2411798.html
Comments
Amen!
Amen!
Praise God for this post.
Praise God for this post. Thank you, God, for giving Michal perceptiveness to see what the real issues are.
I'm making clearnote ladies
I'm making clearnote ladies blog required reading for my senior daugther before she graduates next month, as well as my 14 year old daugther. It has encouraged and challenged me in numerous ways since it began. Thank you for your obedience to this work. I pray I am as faithful to mine.
Thank you for this second
Thank you for this second post, Michal. My pride tries to make me (and my 3/4-done college degree) much more important than my non-degreed friends. But in fact, in my heart, I envy their skills in homemaking, sewing, cooking, and mothering. How I wish that I could trade my classes on professional writing skills, medical nutrition therapy, and the Balkans for a few hours learning to sew! But then I remember: even if college doesn't seem like the best education for the home I want to make, it is the preparation God has given to me. He made a clear, debt-free path for me to come to Bloomington, where, along with those less-than-helpful classes, I have grown under the preaching of the word at CGS.
No, I don't think a college education is the best education for every woman (or even for most women). But, like any other thing, it can be a tool in God's hands to fashion us into godly women.
You know, it's interesting
You know, it's interesting that so many women are offended by the title. When you could look at it this way: "Do women need less education than men?" Yes. Women don't require as much, while men need all they can get! ;)
We may not be "called" to
We may not be "called" to seek out self-esteem, but God certainly does not look down us for for having it. And college presentations, earning good grades, making new & lasting friendships, etc. are all ways of becoming a more confident person. And I believe confidence is a God given characteristic that we can use to further his Kingdom, which surely is not a bad thing.
Also, do you know how many UNEMPLOYED women are out there with zero aspirations also getting abortions? That table can be turned both ways as well. You can't point your finger at a certain demographic and say they are the ones at fault. So if 10% of women are having abortions to enable themselves to further their career or education, what about the rest of the 90% having abortions?? It isn't a cause and effect in this case. Going to college does not cause more abortions. What causes abortions is desparate women who are scared and unfortunately do not trust God with their lives.
And I am sorry, but heaven forbid, your husband dies and you need to find work, employers do not consider google-searches and reading Web MD as a self-taught valid degree. In this situation, nothing can substitute a formal education.
"Now as they observed the
"Now as they observed the confidence of Peter and John and understood that they were uneducated and untrained men, they were amazed, and began to recognize them as having been with Jesus" (Acts 4:13).
True confidence comes from being with Jesus and fearing God rather than man.
"For You are my hope; O Lord GOD, You are my confidence from my youth. By You I have been sustained from my birth; You are He who took me from my mother's womb; My praise is continually of You" (Psalm 71:5:6).
God is faithful and able to provide even when a husband dies.
Aubrey: Your "but what if
Aubrey: Your "but what if your husband dies/leaves" argument is a dangerous one for two reasons. First, because it doesn't just stop at getting a college degree. In the field I'm studying, when I finish my degree, it will mean nothing. I have to have certification to do anything and that certification requires at least one year of unpaid internship after the completion of a degree. If I were to think like you're suggesting, about how to be hire-able in the event of widowhood, it would cost a lot of time and a lot of money. For what? For "just in case."
Second, and much more importantly, your argument reveals a distrust in God. As Nicole says above, scripture tells us that "God is faithful and able to provide." Does that mean that we sit and do nothing, expecting God for an easy life? Of course not. But it does mean that we remain faithful to what he has called us (home, college, marriage, singleness, family) and trust that he will provide for our needs. If we take care to hedge our bets and have a strategy for every possible circumstance, they are all bound to fail. Do not put faith in your college degree. Put faith in the only sovereign God!
Lastly, there is one component of the faith that your argument disregards: the church. "Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world." (James 1:27) It is the duty of other believers to care for those women and children left in frightening situations. I have full confidence that if (Lord forbid) my husband were to die, my church and my family would rally to protect and care for me. What a sweet confidence that is!
Amen, Dani. Thank you for
Amen, Dani. Thank you for your words of wisdom in response to such a popular argument.
I hesitate to post, seeing as
I hesitate to post, seeing as how the majority of the women on this blog forum are from the same area and are of the same religion. However, to post your opinion on the internet, only to have it validated by the likeminded, seems pointless to me.
My intent throughtout this ordeal is to shed light on the fact that we are all sinners. We all fall short. We all have an ugly sinful nature. BUT we are freed from that through Christ. Free to laugh, free to explore, free to be creative, free to pursue this earth and all it's glory. We don't have to look the same, act the same, talk the same, or worship the same. Many of the women that are connected with Michal and this organization come across as the very thing they are pointing out as sin in others! To an outsider, many of you appear to be very prideful indeed. Some sort of a secret society...serving God through serving your husband, kids, community, etc, as if you have favor with God over someone else. You don't! Who does God love? The broken. The needy.
May I leave you with some questions to ask yourselves:
1) If you choose to go to college, get married out of highschool, have kids or no kids, go to trade school, join the military, or just read a lot of books, is the quest for self-esteem entirely absent from all of those choices?
If your answer is yes, you are lying. You experience the natural surge of self-esteem that occurs from doing something, whatever that may be. Self-esteem can apply specifically to a particular dimension (for example, "I believe I am a good cook, and feel proud of that in particular"). Is your life absent from these bouts of good feelings that come from something/someone other than God esteeming us? No.
2) Here is another side to the argument presented earlier regarding distrust for God if one chooses to prepare for life circumstances by pursueing an education, etc. Number 1- Why then plan for retirement or get insurance? Same deal. And to spin that further, when someone says you aren't trusting God to provide if your husband dies, think about it this way. If college debt is crippling you from being able to do the things God has called you to do, then are you really trusting God with THAT? Nope.
I would just LOVE to hear you IN girls admit that you're in the same boat as the feminist, abortion-minded, college-educated, self-esteeming seeking women out there. You are no different. That is all....good night!
In my comment to your
In my comment to your previous entry, I stated that God works in the lives of INDIVIDUALS. And there-in lies the rub. You are not writing a blog about the Great Commission that He calls us all to in some capacity. You are writing a blog about very individual life circumstances. Not every woman is called to be a wife or mother. Not every woman is called to go to college. Not every woman is called to the formal mission field. And I cannot honestly say that the majority of women are called to any single one of these things. I simply do not know the statistics to state that sort of thing categorically.
These circumstances are so very individual and what your three original questions boil down to is: What has God told me to do? My motive (question 2) would be to obey, my purpose (question 1) would be, well first, to obey, and second, presumably God called me to this to prepare me or use me or something, so it would be to seek Him for the specific purpose(s) and pursue them, and the cost (question 3) is irrelevant if God said to do it.
It is great to challenge the assumptions of our culture, which I think is what you're attempting, but there is NO limit to what a woman can do in God's eyes! (Don't forget Deborah, who was the JUDGE over ALL Israel before Israel demanded to have kings like all the other "kids" around them did...) There is NO ONE who valued and empowered women more than Jesus did, and he was SOOO counter cultural in the way he interacted with and respected them. This is NOT to deny that women and men ARE (in general tendencies, doesn't apply to every single individual) wired differently (The world itself is so conflicted over this - at times demanding they're seen as the same and at times completely celebrating their differences!) and that God has laid out some specific roles in terms of how they come together to form a household. As our Creator, and with foresight of the effects of the Fall, God knew how to design the best system to help mitigate the weakness within each gender and together make us stronger. The biggest thing to see is that if we follow His prescription for how to interact, we have the greatest ability to partner with Him in doing His work (a woman submits to an unbelieving husband and sees him come to faith, for example). Jesus called ALL people to live sacrificially and turn the other cheek... women should not feel particularly singled out or offended that He calls us to do this in relationships... for His glory! The point is that God uses women in a myriad of ways to reach this world. We should feel neither proud nor degraded for the way He is using us, so long as we truly are making ourselves available to Him and we are obedient to Him.
As for self-esteem, I think it is silly to say that it is a lie of Satan. Self-esteem exists. You have it, I have it, we all have it. It isn't inherently good or bad. "Self esteem" is a psychology term used to describe one's opinion of oneself. That is all. If you have a proper opinion of yourself, that is one that is grounded in scripture and God's work in your life, then you are doing fine on the self-esteem circuit. If you have an overinflated opinion of yourself and think you're God's gift to the universe, well then yes, you have swallowed a lie of Satan hook, line, and sinker. If you have a degrading opinion of yourself that swallows you in guilt and shame and keeps you from the altar on Sunday, then you have also swallowed a lie of Satan hook, line, and sinker. But as for self-esteem in and of itself, it is a neutral thing until you get carried away by it. I'm not saying our world isn't over-obsessed with it. I'm just saying that the phrase "self esteem is one of the greatest lies that Satan has instilled in our minds today" is false. I think what you really meant was, and correct me if I am wrong, I do not want to put words in your mouth (or on your computer screen as it were lol), "the need for exhaustive pursuit of high self-esteem is one of the greatest lies that Satan has instilled in our minds today."
Remember that the Bible tells us to love others as ourselves. Inherent in that is the love of self. Most of us don't go around beating ourselves up and stealing from ourselves and starving ourselves, etc. We all esteem ourselves to a certain degree. God knows this - thus the Biblical command to love others in the same way. We must be careful with using the words "pride" and "self-esteem" interchangeably. They are not perfect synonyms.
I think the abortion discussion was poorly placed in this blog. That is all I will say to that effect.
Dear Erin, Please keep this
Dear Erin,
Please keep this conversation civil. Your comment is nearly all argumentum ad hominem. Nonetheless, I'm going to leave your comment up for the moment being because I trust that some of the women that post on here came side-step your angry jabs and can wisely answer the few real questions you posed.
It should also be added that you aren't as informed about our "organization" as you think. For example, not all the commenters on here are from Indiana or know Michal personally. Sandy is from Cincinnati. That's in Ohio (not Indiana). I know of one reader that just realized Michal is a woman and not a dude. He is a carpenter in Seattle, WA. We actually have a fairly diverse readership both in regards to geography and theology.
So, Erin, my advice would be to leave your assumptions at the door and just engage the stated points. You can disagree. It is okay. We don't expect everyone to be sycophants as you imply but we do expect a level of civility from everyone (even people from our seedy clandestine organization). Thanks for you compliance!
Sincerely,
Michael Foster
mscottfoster@clearnotefellowship.org
Michael, Since we're
Michael,
Since we're communicating via postings, I appreciate what you are saying, but it is any wonder I may be angry or argumentative when I was called "selfish", "feminist" and told I have "half a brain" because I was on the other side of the fence? I realize those comments were not from Michal, but there were many to come to her rescue and go into attack mode when someone voiced their different opinions. You said, "For example, not all the commenters on here are from Indiana or know Michal personally"...I realize that, and I never said "all". But there are definitely a handful of regulars that do, and of course they are more likely to validate her opinions rather than challenge them.
I find it sad that so far nobody has ackowledged that in God's eyes, we are the same as the people we judge. I'd just like to see a little more humility and a little less pride and judgement.
I know that my post will be likely deleted or attacked by others, but that's ok.
Hope you have a wonderful day.
Each time I think about this
Each time I think about this topic and the question that Michal originally posed, I am continually brought back to the verse Romans 12:2.
"Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will."
Michal's original post did not judge anyone, but instead called each of us to transform our minds and not assume that the world's pattern of high school, college, and then career be our own.
Michal's point of view may
Michal's point of view may have merit, but then again, it may not. Hard for us to know as she is not allowed to defend it. Whenever disagreement arises, the moderator rushes in as if Michal is a small child who has been threatened or as if she is not intelligent enough to debate her opinions in an adult manner.
Sort of silly if you think about it. A blog for women that must be moderated by men. If you are unable to, or not allowed to defend your ideas, why blog in the first place?
Ms. Hoffman, You are being
Ms. Hoffman,
You are being inaccurate in your portrayal of my moderation. I have purposely steered clear of tackling any of the points of theological contention. For example, I said:
"I'm going to leave your comment up for the moment being because I trust that some of the women that post on here came side-step your angry jabs and can wisely answer the few real questions you posed."
My moderation only comes into play when I see people move away from discussing the heart of the post into mere argumentum ad hominem. Notice that I've haven't respond to Desiree or Aubrey's comments. It is because they remained respectful. I disagree with them but I'm sure the women here can respond just as well as I could. So, stay on point and I'll happily stay on the sidelines.
Sincerely,
Michael Foster
mscottfoster@clearnotefellowship.org
Erin: I am far more aware of
Erin: I am far more aware of my sins than you are. Even in your quest to make me admit that I am "in the same boat as the feminist, abortion-minded" women out there, you don't even come close to plumbing the depths of my sin. I mourn my sin, but the beautiful thing about seeing it in all its hideousness is that I see God's grace and righteousness more clearly. And the more I see my own sin and God's grace, the more I experience true freedom in Christ. I claim no righteousness of my own.
Yet I feel certain you'll find a way to twist even that simple statement of faith.
While you accuse me of shackling young women, I am actually telling them to broaden their minds to other options. At no point have I told people what to do, I've simply told them to carefully evaluate their decisions and motives. My goal is not to restrict young women in their choices, but to free them to consider far more. What is your goal?
Laurie: Low blow. Michael
Laurie: Low blow. Michael (the Man) spends 40+ hours a week at a computer at a desk in a depressing cubicle jungle. He has to spend all his time at a computer. I don't. He sees everything before I do. He moderates. I respond. He's the referee. I'm the opponent. But when one player decks the referee, it's fitting for another player to step up.
If there's a valid argument you'd like me to respond to, say so. I'm a big girl. I can do it. I just might not get around to it today, because I have other responsibilities. Save your patronization, please.
-Michal (the Girl)
LOL...one hopes you have the
LOL...one hopes you have the sense of humor to appreciate the irony of your comment.
However, I am not known by the term Ms. and I suspect your addressing me by that term is meant as an insult. How very Christ-like of you.
Have a good day.
Michal...as to your comment
Michal...as to your comment regarding referee/opponent: If you feel you need a moderator, why not a woman of substance? An older woman who is considered to have a good amount of wisdom? After all, this is a "Ladies'" Blog.
Although the choice of the word "Ladies" is interesting in itself. It's a social construct. The Biblical term would be "women" or "female."
Laurie, There is no insult. I
Laurie,
There is no insult. I used Ms. because it is how your formally address a woman. However, I'm happy to refer to you as Laurie if that is what you prefer. You seem committed to attaching the worst possible motives to anyone on this blog.
I was the creative force behind this blog. I choose to invite several women to participate as contributors. Michal was one of them. In other words, Michal didn't choose a moderator. Regardless, we might have a woman as a moderator down the road but I'm in no rush.
Also, You are right that women is a more biblical term. Perhaps, we will make that change.
Here is your chance to have a substantive dialogue with Michal. I'll leave you to it.
Sincerely,
Michael Foster
mscottfoster@clearnotefellowship.org
Desiree: "These circumstances
Desiree: "These circumstances are so very individual."
That's my point. We all have individual circumstances, we need to stop assuming that America's "one-size-fits-all" attitude is constructive and godly for women in the Church. As I responded above to Erin, I am not proposing a restriction of choices but rather a broadening of choices. Then, I propose that we carefully examine the choices we're given, rather than following the "status quo". A woman's education should be tailor-fit to the life she leads.
"...the cost (question 3) is irrelevant if God said to do it."
God is sovereign over our choices and uses them to accomplish His will. But that doesn't mean that every choice we made in the past (wise or unwise, righteous or faithless) was right because He used it for good. God does call us to do things that don't "make sense" in the eyes of the world. But some actions are "stepping out in faith". Some are simply fool-hardy. All I'm saying is think and pray to make sure you're walking in faith.
"there is NO limit to what a woman can do in God's eyes! (Don't forget Deborah, who was the JUDGE over ALL Israel before Israel demanded to have kings like all the other "kids" around them did...) "
You're right. There is NO limit to what a woman can do. However, God has placed certain limitations on His children, and some of those limitations are specific to women. For example, we are instructed to "love [our] husbands, to love [our] children, to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to [our] own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored." (Titus 2:4-5)
We are to be subject to our husbands. Depending on the way you look at it, that could be a "limit" to what a God-honoring woman can do. Or we can look at it as another opportunity to honor God. Does that command restrict us--or free us? I believe it frees us.
There are many unmarried Christian women--what about them? The spirit of these verses can still be applied to single women. Their obedience to God may not include being a "worker at home" or "being subject to her own husband", yet she may obey these verses completely.
And let's not forget that Deborah herself implied it was shameful that Barak refused to step up and "be a man" as a leader in Israel:
Barak said to [Deborah], "If you go with me, I will go; but if you don't go with me, I won't go." "Very well," Deborah said, "I will go with you. But because of the way you are going about this, the honor will not be yours, for the LORD will hand Sisera over to a woman."
Barak was being a coward by refusing to go into battle without Deborah. So Deborah agrees to go, but shames him for it, saying, "the Lord will hand Sisera over to a woman."
Deborah was a godly judge over Israel. God used her greatly. But she was the first to point out that it was shameful to the men of Israel that she should have to go into battle at all.
And finally, about self-esteem. I think this is a question of definitions. In my mind, the word "self-esteem" is synonymous with the message that "if only we believe in ourselves, we'll be able to accomplish great things." I'm not promoting asceticism or self-loathing. I'm simply saying that a healthy self-image is a product of believing in a great God. The more we know God, the more we know ourselves. "Since I knew some perfections which I did not possess, I was not the only being in existence... it followed of necessity that there was someone else more perfect upon whom I depended and from whom I had acquired all that I possessed." Rene Descartes
Michal
Two points with your post.
Two points with your post. First, if you are going to be a mother and a homemaker, you are going to need all the education you can get. These jobs are far more complicated and difficult than is generally appreciated by society. It is far easier to do this before you make a marriage and children.
I don't remember the exact comment in your earlier post relating to going to job interviews and finding that your only qualification is persistence. Persistence should not be underrated. It is useful whether you are dealing with a tough job or a stressful situation in marriage or child-rearing.
Second, you make the argument that it is better to get married young because that way you will be less likely to engage in premarital sex. A good point, and Paul himself makes it. But this addresses the issue of self-control more than it addresses the issue of when to marry. Self-control relates to many issues other than to sex, and a young person who is lacking in self-control before marriage will be lacking in self-control after marriage.
Laurie- I love your voice,
Laurie- I love your voice, and thank you for a fresh perspective. Seeing as how Michael created the idea behind the blog and watches activity on it constantly (as Michal pointed out), he is then likely going to protect it with all he can. This of course includes going to great lengths to defend the like-minded women he has chosen to allow to blog- that is what he's doing. There's an agenda here.
Michael- you say that you don't attack theology- but you have. Here is an example: "P.S. The example of Lydia in no ways defends a career-mindset for a woman but that is for another time. Stick around, Desi." THAT, is interfering with biblical theology. Or how about this comment to me: "For example, not all the commenters on here are from Indiana or know Michal personally. Sandy is from Cincinnati. That's in Ohio (not Indiana)." Sounds a little condescending, wouldn't you agree? I think you may be getting a little too involved in "moderating", and should take a break from your computer screen.
Michal- I understand a lot of what you've said has spun off into other issues. However, you have to acknowlege that through what you've said, you've put some writing on the wall. An example would be the big can of worms opened by connecting education to premarital sex to abortions. Thank you, though, for speaking of your sinful nature! I like your humility there.
Erin, You may not post any
Erin,
You may not post any further comments UNLESS they are directly responding to the content of the post. I've tried to give you time to change your approach but you remain overly antagonistic and arrogant. You constantly lecture everyone on their "pride" and are incessantly rude. However, I make one little sarcastic remark and you are all up in arms. Come on, sister, listen to the words of Jesus:
"Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye." Matthew 7:3-5
Get that log out of your eye and you are welcome to return to the conversation.
Sincerely,
Michael Foster
mscottfoster@clearnotefellowship.org
Someone above said, "Most of
Someone above said, "Most of us don't go around beating ourselves up and stealing from ourselves and starving ourselves, etc."
Oh my, I hardly know where to begin responding!
We steal from ourselves everytime we put our own judgment above God's. We starve ourselves by not being daily in God's word and in a constant prayer conversation with Him. We steal and starve in the physical world as well -- everytime we have a Starbuck's when we should be putting money away for the next car we'll need to purchase or everytime we pop a convenient food into our mouths instead of thinking ahead and preparing healthful food. And everytime we have sex outside of a lifelong monogamous marriage between one man and one woman - we steal from ourselves and our potential spouse.
We steal from ourselves and starve ourselves constantly, daily, all the time. We do this *because* we esteem ourselves too highly and in the wrong way. Instead, our esteem should be in Christ who is our provider.
Kamilla
P.S. Michal, excellent post! I ordered the book from the library but had to let it go back. It's on my list and I hope to read it this summer.
Kamilla, I appreciate what
Kamilla,
I appreciate what you're saying. I meant that sentence in the most literal way possible. You are speaking metaphorically; I was not. Obviously we starve ourselves spiritually when we do not seek the Lord first. I was referring to beating ourselves up physically (incurring bruises, breaks, etc. in our physical body). I was referring to starving ourselves physically. I was referring to stealing money or objects physically. Choosing to buy a starbucks coffee rather than save for a car is a choice that may deprive me of the greater and more worthwhile pleasure, but just because I chose poorly does not mean that I wrongfully acquired the funds. Does that make sense? Just because you choose fast food over healthy food does not mean you are physically starving (e.g. you may be unhealthy and overweight, but you are not going to bed hungry every night. This is not a commentary on the fact that there are people in the world starving. My point is that the majority of the population does not deny themselves food when they have access to it - anorexia would be an exception). I truly meant the phrase in a very literal sense. Though, I do generally agree with the spiritual context you have placed it in.
My simple point was that we all esteem ourselves to a certain degree - we all love ourselves enough to keep ourselves alive. Whether or not we esteem ourselves to the proper degree and in accordance with God's word was not my argument. Michal already responded to my post. She and I were simply defining the same word (self-esteem) in two different ways.
I've decided to step away from this blog. I simply wanted to comment on your response to my quote because you seemed to misunderstand the context of what I was writing. I feel that there is a difference in doctrinal understanding between myself and the blog that cannot be reconciled. I appreciated the conversations just the same and, of course, wish you all the best.
Dear Sisters (and
Dear Sisters (and Brother),
If this blog is intended only for those who agree with everything wholeheartedly, why not make it members-only, set a password? I have watched from the outside as you ruthlessly attack anyone who doesn’t worship and adore your words. Erin’s first comment to this post was not out of line at all – she made some valid points, especially regarding the inner circle of women who are accepted here, much to the exclusion of everyone else. The way you have treated her – and anyone who doesn’t tell you that you’re amazing, godly women – is shameful.
Some comments made by the CGS women have been extremely hurtful to me – ME! who hasn’t even participated in your discussions and agrees with what you say! (If not always HOW you say it.) So how much have you been hurting other women? I realize that truth is often a painful and unpleasant thing, but that is not what I mean. For instance, the comment that “anyone with half a brain can see that mothers are more selfless than students” while true, is deeply offensive on many levels.
Those of you who are mothers: do you realize how blessed you are? Or are you just proud of all the sacrifices you make? I understand how difficult your lives are, but you’re forgetting something crucial: you have what every woman deeply wants. You should be rejoicing! Do you realize how hurtful it is to read this, as someone who very much desires children? If I still lived in Indiana, I could never be part of your inner circle even if I wanted to, because I haven’t reached the level of godliness you have, being childless. Never mind the thankless jobs I do to support my husband’s career dreams, the willingness to up and move anywhere, the complete physical and emotional exhaustion I face at the end of every day. I warn you sisters, don’t let motherhood make you proud. Don’t idolize this beautiful gift from God.
You say that you are humble, you say you detest your own sin (how you can claim to hate your sin more than someone else hates their sin, I don't know), but you will only say that in a very general sense while touting your godliness and motherhood, mercilessly attacking anyone who wants to have a genuine discussion with you. You are not changing anyone’s hearts or lives through this blog, you are only attracting people who absolutely adore you, and pushing everyone else away by your refusal to respect them. And then you claim to detest self-esteem! If you truly believe you are an imperfect sinner, why don’t you feel compassion for people who don’t understand the truth? Why don’t you long to walk with those who are struggling through life just as you are?
The ideas and truths you write about are wonderful, but I’m deeply, deeply concerned about the arrogance and pride you display as you claim to represent God’s truth. Please prayerfully consider this.
Kristen, I really don't know
Kristen,
I really don't know how to respond other than to tell you how wrong you are. You can't possibly know what fruit this blog will bear now and in the future. I can tell you, however, that I never would have met Michal and come to count her as a dear sister in Christ if her father hadn't been completely and thoroughly offensive, even (I thought at the time) downright mean.
I'm curious, though. Could you give an actual quote from what Michal or any of those here who agree with here - what they have written which you find to be evidence of their refusal to respect their opponents?
Kamilla
"I'm curious, though. Could
"I'm curious, though. Could you give an actual quote from what Michal or any of those here who agree with here - what they have written which you find to be evidence of their refusal to respect their opponents?"
One specific comment mentioned as disrespectful would be “anyone with half a brain can see that mothers are more selfless than students.”
Disrespectful because it is based on the assumption that the speaker knows God's will for these women's lives than the women themselves do.
Also judgmental. We have no way of knowing what paths God is choosing for other women. It's quite possible that some of those college women have chosen to educate themselves before marriage because even though they would like to have a husband and family, they have not yet met their proper mate. Some of them may be married women who would like to have children, but are unable to. Some of them may choose to continue their educations to honor the will of their parents. Some may feel that the gifts that God has given them can be used more efficiently if they stay single. Those women may actually be practicing obedience, and their obedience may very well be as much of a sacrifice of self as motherhood.
Implicit in the remark is also a prideful expression that God has called the speaker to a higher path than He has called those she is speaking of.
On the subject of those women who are choosing to educate themselves even though they hope to meet the right man and marry: One of the best ways we can honor God's will for our lives is to prepare ourselves for whatever His will may be. Best to keep those windows open until God closes them.
Laurie, That comment was
Laurie,
That comment was neither disrespectful, ir prideful or judgmental - it was, quite simply, true.
If I constructed a survey measuring acts of selflessness such as spending a sleepless night caring for another person and administered it to 100 randomly picked female college students and 100 randomly picked mothers . . .
Do you get the point now?
Kamilla
Kamilla, I get your point, I
Kamilla,
I get your point, I just don't agree with you. I think if you polled 100 college women you would find that most of them had spent sleepless nights consoling friends who were facing some difficulty, sitting up with sick roommates, or encouraging friends who were stressed out over exams. The blanket assertion that mothers are more selfless than students is quite simply untrue.
Anyone who is trying to discern and obey God's will in their lives is practicing the virtue of selflessness, because true obedience requires some level of submersion of the self.
Mrs. Hoffman, I'm going to
Mrs. Hoffman,
I'm going to disagree with Kamilla. I corrected, along with several others, the woman who said,“anyone with half a brain can see that mothers are more selfless than students." It was definitely out of line. I have found ad hominem arguments to be rarely wise--especially when dealing with women. I wished I had caught that comment before it went up. There were 8-9 responses by the time I saw it. So, I have only left it up for the benefit of the commenter Erin. If I take it down it will remove the context to her comments making her look completely unjust to be angry. I don't think that would be fair to her.
I hope you see that those who who officially represent ClearNote Fellowship (e.g. myself, Michal, Anne Jones, etc) are trying to be fair and charitable towards those who disagree with us.
Sincerely,
Michael Foster
mscottfoster@clearnotefellowship.org
Dear Kristen, I am grieved by
Dear Kristen,
I am grieved by your comment. Please discriminate between the posts and the comments. Contrary to what several women believe, the women who like my post are not all part of some "inner-circle" self-righteous mothers' mutual admiration society where we massage each other's egos while feigning martyrdom. For this reason, the posts and comments can't all be addressed as one. Do you see what I'm saying? Let me put it this way--just because someone agrees with me does not mean I agree with them--or the way they argue.
In this case, I have to disagree with both Heidi (my dear sister-in-law and best friend) and Kamilla in their assertion that "anyone with half a brain can see that mothers are more selfless than students.” I've heard people say that the pursuits of a student are inherently selfish because they are all about improving/equipping/enriching one's SELF. However, motherhood could be portrayed in a similar light. What could be more selfish than making a decision to manufacture miniature versions of yourself? How much more ego-centric could we get, right? So then, it all boils down to the student (or mother) herself. The student pursuing a degree for the glory of God and the service of His kingdom is self-less. The mother dying to herself in childbirth is self-less. However, the mother treating her child as a fashion accessory is perverting what you call (and is truly) "this beautiful gift from God."
I have done my best to respond thoughtfully and respectfully to comments from those who disagree with me. I have not bothered to respond to several comments for these reasons:
1. The comment missed the point of the articles so completely that I did not know how to respond. For example, one comment to my last post began with this sentence:
"Wow, I am shocked at the rage against Erin's comments and her stand on why for SOME WOMEN seeking a college education is beneficial and dare I say it, even a Godly choice?!"
I was well aware when I wrote the first post that some people would misconstrue my meaning to be that women should not pursue higher education. That's why I countered that argument IN my first post, beginning with this sentence:
"Many women obtain a degree–and honor God in doing so."
2. It became apparent that some commenters had no desire to engage in polite and productive dialogue. Everything I said they misconstrued, so I knew they weren't trying to analyze the topic at hand, but rather were bent on taking offense (or giving offense) at every point.
The beginning and end of your third paragraph I agree with whole-heartedly. Submitting to God, no matter what the circumstances, is a hard job. I have never claimed that my daily work of submitting is more righteous--or more humble--or more self-less--than anyone else's, much less yours. I think that, in your apparent desire for motherhood, you have fallen prey to a painful misperception. Often, single women or childless women see "the others'" interaction as some sort of elitist club. We talk about our kids (or husbands) ad nauseum. We go shopping together. We start little playgroups and meet-ups--all while you are at work. Well, let me give an insider's perspective. To our eyes, we are not an elitist club. We're a 12-step program. It's not that we're trying to quit an addiction, it's that we all mostly face the same harrowing battles each and every day--battles against discontentment, laziness, selfishness, anger (even rage), covetousness, gluttony, in ourselves and our children. These are many of the same battles you face each and every day, I'm sure. We rebuke each other for our outbursts of anger. We (with red faces) are told that our children are unruly--and it's a result of our own failure in disciplining them. We point each other to helpful systems and methods of housekeeping and laundry.
I'm not drawing a line between you (childless) and me (mother). I would have hoped that the blog posts would rather have bound many of us together as sisters, and promoted productive dialogue about how we can encourage and instruct young women to prepare for their futures most effectively--whether they become mothers or receptionists, doctors or poets. I am neither opposed to higher education for women, nor have I placed the job of motherhood above the job of wife, or single woman.
As for your fourth paragraph, you have misunderstood my meaning when I said, "Erin: I am far more aware of my sins than you are." I should have worded my response more carefully. I am not claiming to know my sin more intimately than Erin knows her own. I was simply assuring her that I know the depth of my own sin better than she (in her attempts at pin-pointing it) knows my sin. The gulf that my sin has produced between me and God is deep and wide; I praise God that His mercy is deeper. As Ephesians 3:17-19 says,
"And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God. "
In conclusion, I'd like to say that much of this dialogue would be more effective in private email. Kristen, I would love for you to email me. As it is, I had to post this response publicly--even with its personal content--because I don't have an email address for you. I hope you don't object.
Sincerely,
Kristen and Michal- I was
Kristen and Michal-
I was deeply touched by both your post Kristen, and your response Michal.
Kristen- you said exactly how I was feeling, but much better. And I was so moved by your feelings of not being a mother yourself, etc. Thank you so much. I am so thankful.
And Michal, I feel so much better after reading your reply. Thank you.
I've been really struggling with feelings of hurt and anger towards the moderator and certain commenters on this blog. To me, this was a God-send. I needed this peace in my heart. And right before I head out the door to church. Really, thank you Kristen and Michal so much.
Michal, Thank you for your
Michal,
Thank you for your thoughtful response, yes, I will email you.
I had mentioned arrogance and pride in my first comment, and I should add something for the sake of everyone reading - the reason I feel "qualified" to point this out in others is that I have been so guilty of it myself.
Several years ago, I engaged in some lengthy debates with a "gentleman" (quotations are necessary here) who was/is an atheist. My intentions in the beginning were to obey God by loving others, telling them the truth. This man perceived himself to be quite an intellectual, and so I had to fight him with my best intellectual arguments about why the Bible is true. To make a long story short, pride quickly took over my good intentions. The discussions became less about honoring God, and more about being right. You see, I LOVE being right. And deep inside, believe God has gifted me with being right ALL the time. Ha! (What a patient and merciful God we have for not smiting me down with lightening by now!) Rather than presenting the truth in hopes that his soul would be saved, I desperately wanted to win the argument. I delighted in pointing out the fallacies in his arguments, the flaws in his life. I began to be sarcastic, and even downright hostile. In the end, his heart and mind were more closed off than ever. Every negative stereotype he ever encountered was enforced, and he gleaned nothing from my words except that I must be a little crazy.
When others perceive this kind of pride, they are no longer open to our teaching and ministry. I was struck by the 80-some comments on the first post, and thought that the discussion would have been more productive and glorifying to God had pride not interfered. This is why I mentioned arrogance and pride - not to point fingers at Michal, whom I don't personally know. But as a warning to everyone reading/writing/commenting, because that seems to be the direction these posts are going in.
Sorry to get so off-topic from the original post. I just thought this should be addressed.
Just one thing to add
Just one thing to add regarding the actual post:
All men and women going to college SHOULD consider the questions raised, because the majority don't belong there. Many students (at public universities) are not interested in learning, learning how to learn, becoming proficient at what they're called to do, or improving their character. Most students are interested in getting away from their parents, partying, "experimenting" and finding all kinds of immediate fulfillment. These students would make horrific parents as well, and many do.
I liked the point about education apart from academia. The most educated person I know has spent little time in academia, but should receive an honorary doctorate in life experience, and has read more books than half of Indiana University combined! College is valuable for learning how to learn, and for the personal encounters and experiences. Were it not for college, I probably would have surrounded myself with people who were just like me - none of us learning or teaching anything to each other. Being surrounded by liberal professors and students actually deepened my relationship with God immensely, and I felt used by Him. I was forced to get serious in my study of scripture, or else my brain would be subject to being washed! I was forced to answer tough questions, and the commitment that required kept my faith from being lukewarm.
But for men and women who are not looking to improve their character or pursue something God has weighed on them, it's certainly an expensive way to kill time.
Sorry to be off-topic, but I
Sorry to be off-topic, but I have to second Erin. Kristen and Michal, your interaction here is quite moving, a powerful testimony to the workings of God in the minds and hearts of those who are trying to discern and follow His will.
I pray God's blessings on you both.
Dear ladies, Please forgive
Dear ladies,
Please forgive me for my initial response to Erin. It was written in my anger and impatience. Because the attitude behind it was sinful, it has done much more harm than good. Please forgive me for my words and accept this sincere apology and confession.
In Christ,
Heidi Bayly